The Official Atheism Thread

[About2Crash]

So, we have pretty much bogged down the Christianity thread which isn't really fair to those who'd like to have a thread without being flame war'd all the time.

So here we go

[Wigg]

I've spent many a night watching Dawks, Hitch and Penn on Youtube. I've seen some christian 'scientists' win a few arguments but never against those three who have such a good encyclopaedic knowledge and debating talent. It's bizarre how quickly the discussion goes from religion to evolution but I think it is important. Physics are the answer and knowledge is the cure for religion.

[About2Crash]

whenever i see a Christian "win", its usually because they pull out something that the atheist genuinely does not know. they might have won the debate, but they never win the argument. and that is the problem with debates. it is more of a "who is the best and most prepared at arguing" contest than anything.

[Wigg]

Do you think leaving well enough alone, or seeking a fight is the way to go? It's hard to say which is more effective, as either way the stigma behind atheism is eroding in society and where there used to be closet atheists in pews in churches trying not to cause controversy or tension in family etc, there are more atheists coming out, signing the census accordingly etc in recent times than ever before.

I cant remember the particular video but someone in an interview with Penn I believe was so furious at the concept of an atheist going to church every week. Like it's simply impossible to be in church as a closet atheist.

I think in the modern first world, there is less of a need for religion when we have it so good, which is a big part of why the stigma is eroding. I don't expect religion to disappear overnight in a third world place where education isn't as readily available and where there is legitimate shit to pray about like poverty and persecution.

[About2Crash]

Penn Jillette: An Atheist's Guide to the 2012 Election | Penn Jillette | Big Think

There is a bunch of good stuff in this. But I think that the point that Penn makes about atheism in 1890 is very interesting. It is as if right now religion is a dying star expanding in one last dying grasp. As for me, I try not to "attack", but correct. If people are talking about their religions I do not just go in and try and ruin their conversation, but if I hear "Jesus preaches love and understanding." I can't help but interject about that whole slavery being ok thing. It is very easy to stay humble in a conversation if you are an atheist. The reason is that they believe that you will always have one up on them by simply not believing.

One of my cast members asked me, "Do you think that you are missing out on anything spiritual in your choice?"

And I could only say, "No." That's the entire point, isn't it?

[DevilsThunder666]

So as atheists you dont believe in the paranormal? Ghost s spirits human energy? I can agree on anti religion, but I believe in something higher power, non human intelligence maybe? Id like to think that we are all linked, through nature... I dont believe in the deities that organized major religions believe in but I like ritual for spiritual enlightenment or meditation, but religious dogma is dangerous always question.

[About2Crash]

Id like to think

Those are the specific words that you have to always throw out. Every time.

As for that other stuff. Yeah, I don't believe in it. Does it exist? I don't know. Certainly there has never been a shred of evidence worth looking at to suppose otherwise, but it cannot be disproven. With so many fantastical things that are even harder to believe, but are observable in the universe (dark matter, black holes, etc.) why are we always concerned with strictly human ideas of the fantastic?

And why does it have to be "spiritual"? Of course we are all connected in nature in that we all exist. Why can't what is real, hell the entirely awesome phenomenon that life actually exists be interesting enough? Life itself is such an abnormal thing in our universe that I feel no need to question about a completely hypothetical, unobservable, and ultimately redundant afterlife.

[Wigg]

I believe in facts, physics, statistics...

The tenets of religion are useful guidelines for living not just a good life personally but to improve the lives of others, I don't think you need a myth or a ghost story to teach how to be good. Using the idea of hell as a punishment for being a dick is like the scenes in Arrested Development where the guy gets his arm ripped off to teach the kids a lesson on how to be good.

The brain is capable of crazy things like release of drug-like episodes through meditation, and of course, medication. I don't think anybody in history has had a legitimate experience with a deity, prophet or what have you. Epiphanies however are real. Suddenly gaining focus and having eureka moments are real but it's more closely related to having de ja vu or seeing a coincidence, than having an angel talk to you. Seeing Jesus in a forkfull of spaghetti for example is nothing but a hallucination.

Non human intelligence to me means extraterrestrials which I absolutely believe in, but I doubt, and it's yet to be proven that any life not originating on earth is among us.

I believe ghosts and spirits don't exist and the end of life is the urn or casket. I can't claim to perceive what it's like, and I think the fact most can't imagine the blank, senseless void of unlife is the fundamental reason men who wrote the religious texts are so focused on the afterlife.

[About2Crash]

I believe that universe is big enough that there is probably some form of life out there, but until there is evidence to say one way or another that is the only answer I can give.

[Eddy[IM]Martijn]

Seeing Jesus in a forkfull of spaghetti for example is nothing but a hallucination.

It isnt an halucination, it's a phenomenon called Pareidolia Verry common in everyday life. Seeing animal forms in clouds, seeing jesus in a burned piece of wood, seeing a face in a picture full of dots etc.

Pareidolia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Wigg]

^ Truth. But it's a hallucination nonetheless to think that any particular coincidence is a sign of anything devine. The brain is indeed capable of crazy things like personification of inanimate objects, but there's a difference between seeing the face in the spaghetti which anyone even an atheist can see, and interpreting, claiming and believing it as a sign of something divine.

I think the same goes for most supposed miracles.

EDIT:

I see the flying spaghetti monster. Miracle!

[Eddy[IM]Martijn]

True true, allthough everyone sees the jesus face only the one who believes (in a hardcore/radical way) will think of it as something divine.

[CryojenX]

I believe ghosts and spirits don't exist and the end of life is the urn or casket. I can't claim to perceive what it's like, and I think the fact most can't imagine the blank, senseless void of unlife is the fundamental reason men who wrote the religious texts are so focused on the afterlife.

Not existing used to scare me, then was unfathomable to me, because I'll always exist in some form or another, at least until dark energy tears everything apart in 30 or so billion years. But on the question of me as in this person that I am right now, lately I find the idea of nonexistence one day to be comforting. Finally a day when I'll be pain free and can stop trying so hard, a day of rest. Nonexistence is my reward for having lived as long as possible in a world of constant suffering.

I'm cool with no afterlife for the first time in my life.

[Eddy[IM]Martijn]

It sounds pretty depressing what you say.

I try my best to make every day count and enjoy my life as long as I can, because I believe that there is nothing after death. So enjoy now what you can't later ^.^

[About2Crash]

i want to donate my body to necrophiliac studies. imagine a bureau where necrophiliacs could sign up, and be given donated bodies to fuck legally be studied.

i'm all for science.

[About2Crash]

How you describe it, makes me think you're not an atheist but agnostic/an agnost.

I think believing that there is something out there but not acknowledging or denying it is god/aliens/big bang etc because it isn't proven a form of Agnosticism.

Almost all atheists are agnostic. The way that people think of agnosticism is nothing more than atheism without wanting the associations given to the word atheist. All that agnostic means is "i don't know'. You can't believe in something that you don't know, so I am an agnostic atheist meaning that I do not believe in gods, but I do not know that without a shadow of a doubt that there isn't one.

If you identify yourself as an agnostic, most likely you are an atheist and just have your terms wrong.

And that is where a lot of the confusion lies. It is obvious that you cannot prove that God is real, yet to believe in something you must "know" it to be true. Therefore, if you are a Christian but admit that you can't prove it, then you have to admit that you either do not believe in God, but that you simply want to. Wanting to believe has nothing to do with actual belief, although it deludes many into protecting and defending a position that they themselves do not fill.

Since I've been sucking Penn Jillette's dick, I'll do it once more. He has a line where he says that he is a hardcore atheist meaning that he not only does not believe in God but that he goes one step forward and doesn't even think that most other people believe. They simply want to and are satisfied with happy delusion rather than cold logical thought.

Every conversation comes back to the same thing, if you cannot prove something to be true then you cannot "know" it. If you cannot know it, then you cannot truly believe it, you can only will yourself into delusion.

[Iced]

I was raised a United Methodist. My parents took me to church every week. I went to Catholic school from kindergarten to high school. Before I stopped outright, I probably only missed like 5 sundays of church.

I don't even remember what promoted it, but in the beginning of 2010 I finally realized how dumb the whole thing was. I still went to church for a couple months to, like Wigg mentioned, avoid any conflict. But after a while I just said fuck it. I think my parents think I don't go because I don't like the pastor or something... I don't think they could fathom the idea of their son being an atheist. My grandma always tries to guilt trip me into going too.. it's pretty funny. But it's also tragic at the same time.

[Wigg]

Two points:

1. You can't prove the existence of god, therefore why would you believe in it, but can't disprove to the 100%, without a shadow of doubt that he doesn't exist. With every scientific discovery it's proving less and less likely for it, but there is still no absolute. Dawkins said 'I am agnostic about god in the same sense that I'm agnostic about fairies.' Since you can't prove the existence of fairies, and in taking in all evidence you must believe that they most likely do not exist, but fairies have the same lore, a written record in ancient tales, and there is no 100% statistic that you could walk out into your back garden and there won't be one there.

2. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim. Scientist make unproven claims sure, but there is always an asterix where applicable, that it is still in hyposthesis form or there is still doubt, and the scientific process never stops testing and studying until it is rock solid, going from theory to fact. Many religious people can stop at something being in print in a text, and they have this circle of misled logic, such as in the bible, the bible is word of god, because that's what's written in the bible, and the bible is infallible as it is the word of god.

__

Yeah Jeff even I'm guilt tripped into going to catholic mass twice a year at easter and christmas, I am absent minded the whole time and don't follow along or anything. I don't exaclty boil with hate during though. We don't talk about religion in our house at all but it's no secret I'm an atheist and isn't an issue.

[anjzilla]

The way that people think of agnosticism is nothing more than atheism without wanting the associations given to the word atheist.

I disagree. I wouldn't mind being placed in the same category as atheists, but I genuinely think that the presence of some higher being is a definite posibility. To me, many atheists look to logic and current scientific evidence with too much faith. We (as in humankind) are so wrong so often. How can we put any faith in anything?. . .a book, a hypothesis, a mathmatical formula, a feeling, a story told for hundreds of year. . .My feeling is that we dont know the truth, so we can't leave any posibilities out.

And the existence of God could be proved. . .if he/she decided to prove it.

[Eddy[IM]Martijn]

Almost all atheists are agnostic. The way that people think of agnosticism is nothing more than atheism without wanting the associations given to the word atheist. All that agnostic means is "i don't know'. You can't believe in something that you don't know, so I am an agnostic atheist meaning that I do not believe in gods, but I do not know that without a shadow of a doubt that there isn't one.

Is being an atheist such a big deal in other countries then in Holland/Germany/Belgium (mostly europe)? It sounds almost as if its on par with coming out that you're gay O.o (Compared to the Ducth society)
We have some exception here in Holland, it's called the bible belt, but the rest of Holland will think you are the same person weither you believe or not.

All that agnostic means is "i don't know'.

Indeed and an atheist does not believe there is a god(s). I think that's the thin line between those two. When you say you don't believe in god but can't totally exclude god from the whole creation story like atheist do, then you are agnostic.

Fun fact:
Stephen Hawkins once described (with theories offcourse) how the universe was created all the way to a certain point that he couldnt back up his thoughts anymore. From that point it was God's work .